Thomas Harris and the Hannibal Books

[M!$H]

Has anyone read Thomas Harris' books? He's an incredible crime writer. You'll probably recognized most of his books, they were made into movies. He wrote, "Red Dragon," "Silence of the Lambs," "Hannibal," and was forced to write "Hannibal Rising" when the director said he would use the characters in the movie book or not. Irregardless, they are amazing books.

I'm finished "Red Dragon" and "Silence of the Lambs" and am almost done with "Hannibal." I got the books for my birthday. They are incredible. Red Dragon is my favorite so far - I feel so bad for Francis Dolarhyde, despite all the horrible things he does (If you've seen the movie, you know.) I find myself in some ways understanding why he does those horrible things and in many ways, feeling like only someone inherently evil could do that.

Anyway. If anyone whose read the books (or seen the movies, they're basically the same - the movies are astonishingly close to the books), I would like to know everyone's opinion on the series.

[mashrum]

Hi Mish,
I have't read any of Thomas Harris' books, but I have seen the three Hopkins' films (I would also like to see the Manhunter, which is the first Red Dragon's film adaptation - with Brian Cox playing Lecter) - I really like The Silence of the Lambs (I like the way it describes the use of psychological profiling), the Red Dragon is also good, but as I already knew what to expect it wasn't that shocking, but still pretty good. I didn't like Hannibal. I've seen it just once, and I don't remember much of the story but it just seemed so crappy compared to the SOTL. I'm also not a big fan of J.Moore (not a big fan of J.Foster either, but it's not that bad as with Julianne).
I've written an assay about serial killers for my psychology lessons, so I have read a lot about them at crimelibrary.com and I have seen the Serial Killers: The Real Life Hannibal Lecters document - both compare Lecter to real-life killers - it's pretty interesting. In the document, there's this psychologist R.Ressler (who inspired Harris' character Crawford) and he says that the killers in Harris' books aren't accurate (as many people think). There aren't any serial killers, who were psychiatrists or who had such a high social status etc. I was REALLY scared when I was writing my paper (it's so much worse when you know that it really happened) and even now I'm scared to read it after myself

[Snoogans4Jay]

mashrum said:

Hi Mish,
I have't read any of Thomas Harris' books, but I have seen the three Hopkins' films (I would also like to see the Manhunter, which is the first Red Dragon's film adaptation - with Brian Cox playing Lecter) - I really like The Silence of the Lambs (I like the way it describes the use of psychological profiling), the Red Dragon is also good, but as I already knew what to expect it wasn't that shocking, but still pretty good. I didn't like Hannibal. I've seen it just once, and I don't remember much of the story but it just seemed so crappy compared to the SOTL. I'm also not a big fan of J.Moore (not a big fan of J.Foster either, but it's not that bad as with Julianne).
I've written an assay about serial killers for my psychology lessons, so I have read a lot about them at crimelibrary.com and I have seen the Serial Killers: The Real Life Hannibal Lecters document - both compare Lecter to real-life killers - it's pretty interesting. In the document, there's this psychologist R.Ressler (who inspired Harris' character Crawford) and he says that the killers in Harris' books aren't accurate (as many people think). There aren't any serial killers, who were psychiatrists or who had such a high social status etc. I was REALLY scared when I was writing my paper (it's so much worse when you know that it really happened) and even now I'm scared to read it after myself

There WAS a serial killer, however, who was a psychology major. Theodore Robert Bundy. Ted. He is the closest we have come to that scenario. A good many "psychos" spend a great deal of time analyzing what makes them what they are.....truth IS scarier than fiction......just look at Albert Fish........

[mashrum]

Oh, of course, how could I forget Bundy. His case is one of the most interesting, I think. It's even said that he inspired Harris' character Buffalo Bill (the same MO - to pretend he has a broken arm). But Bundy wasn't practising psychology, or was he? I don't know that much about him... But there are some doctors who killed their patiens - currently, there's a trial with a Czech male-nurse Petr Zelenka, who killed 8 people with heparin and attempted to kill 10 more... Fish is SO scary, he is like a real life witch from the Hansel and Gretel fairy tale by the brothers Grimm! BTK also scares me a lot - one of my colleagues from my summer-job looks a lot like him and I always watched him suspiciously whenever we stayed alone

[M!$H]

mashrum said:

Oh, of course, how could I forget Bundy. His case is one of the most interesting, I think. It's even said that he inspired Harris' character Buffalo Bill (the same MO - to pretend he has a broken arm). But Bundy wasn't practising psychology, or was he? I don't know that much about him... But there are some doctors who killed their patiens - currently, there's a trial with a Czech male-nurse Petr Zelenka, who killed 8 people with heparin and attempted to kill 10 more... Fish is SO scary, he is like a real life witch from the Hansel and Gretel fairy tale by the brothers Grimm! BTK also scares me a lot - one of my colleagues from my summer-job looks a lot like him and I always watched him suspiciously whenever we stayed alone

There was a woman who killed babies with heparin in England as well, as well as a few in America. I will have to look up their names to find out. It's a little disturbing and common. One in America was renowned for babies dying on her shift and she would get a lot of attention for "saving" one or two of them. One time, a set of twins came into the hospital, so she gave them heparin and then "saved" one; their parents made her the godmother!! But when it all came out that hospital officials knew this woman was killing babies, the parents (and many other parents) sued the woman and sued the hospital.

The thing about Hannibal Lector is that I don't consider him to necessarily be a serial killer, which I know is weird. As a character, he is so charismatic, it's easy to forget the things he does. He kills people because he considers them inferior; he killed the flute player just cause he was a BAD flute player. He doesn't kill Clarisse because 1) he knows Clarisse is good at what she does and 2.) Clarisse reminds him of his little sister. If you read Hannibal Rising (the book is better than the movie IMO) you learn more effectively why Lector does what he does.

[mashrum]

Yeah, the "angels of death" cases in hospitals are really disturbing - I've heard that some hospitals knew about those activities and tried to cover it up as well - you might mean Genene Jones (who is known to kill babies with heparin, and the hospitals where she worked destroyed her records so they wouldn't be sued). Beverley Allitt is also known for harming her patiens just to gain attention (I think this mental disorder is called Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy or something like that).

I think I know what you mean when you say you don't consider Hannibal a serial killer - I have a similar feeling about him. He is so charismatic, elegant and well-behaved that it doesn't seem he does the killing on some wild impulse. Is that reason for Hannibal's actions the fact that he saw his sister being killed and eaten by the Nazis? I didn't see the movie but I've heard that this is what happens there..?

When we're talking about the serial killers: John and the people around the Pistols are lucky to not become a victim of such a crime, as Dennis Nilsen was working at the Denmark St Job Centre near Pistols' rehearsal rooms!

[M!$H]

mashrum said:

Yeah, the "angels of death" cases in hospitals are really disturbing - I've heard that some hospitals knew about those activities and tried to cover it up as well - you might mean Genene Jones (who is known to kill babies with heparin, and the hospitals where she worked destroyed her records so they wouldn't be sued). Beverley Allitt is also known for harming her patiens just to gain attention (I think this mental disorder is called Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy or something like that).

I think I know what you mean when you say you don't consider Hannibal a serial killer - I have a similar feeling about him. He is so charismatic, elegant and well-behaved that it doesn't seem he does the killing on some wild impulse. Is that reason for Hannibal's actions the fact that he saw his sister being killed and eaten by the Nazis? I didn't see the movie but I've heard that this is what happens there..?

When we're talking about the serial killers: John and the people around the Pistols are lucky to not become a victim of such a crime, as Dennis Nilsen was working at the Denmark St Job Centre near Pistols' rehearsal rooms!

That is partially the reason for Hannibal's actions. His sister, Mishka, was killed and eaten by I think it was either Russian or German soldiers during World War 2. When he was in his late teens, he was living in Paris, but he spent all his time tracking them down. The first one he found was in the woods where they killed Mishka and he ate his face - thus beginning his method of killing people he feels are inferior and basially disgracing their humanity. Also during this time, he kills a butcher who insulted his Japanese aunt.

I did not know that Dennis Nilsen was "working" near the rehearsal rooms. That is scary. I remember when the Green River Killer was still at large in the Portland, Oregon and Vancouver, Washington area, my sister was in college at the University of Portland. It was a very scary time. And then a year after they caught him, one of her friends was murdered in their dorm building. Horribly frightening. People are pretty demented. I cannot wrap my head around it sometimes. :S

[mashrum]

Thanks for the info about Hannibal Mish! I've heard similar thing about Andrej Chikatilo, whose mother told him how his older brother was killed and eaten by some starving stragglers during one of the famines in Ukraine in the Stalinist era, and he also became cannibal (though many people there witnessed such things and didn't become serial killers so that couldn't have been the only reason for him..).

I'm so sorry about your sister losing her friend! You must have been terribly worried about your sister living in that area.

The thing about Nilsen - I think he started killing in '78 and I guess the Pistols were not using the Denmark St rehearsals anymore at that time - they have split up in time! There's a bit about it here --> nickelinthemachine.blogspot.com/2007/11/denmark-street.html

[M!$H]

mashrum said:

Thanks for the info about Hannibal Mish! I've heard similar thing about Andrej Chikatilo, whose mother told him how his older brother was killed and eaten by some starving stragglers during one of the famines in Ukraine in the Stalinist era, and he also became cannibal (though many people there witnessed such things and didn't become serial killers so that couldn't have been the only reason for him..).

I'm so sorry about your sister losing her friend! You must have been terribly worried about your sister living in that area.

The thing about Nilsen - I think he started killing in '78 and I guess the Pistols were not using the Denmark St rehearsals anymore at that time - they have split up in time! There's a bit about it here --> nickelinthemachine.blogspot.com/2007/11/denmark-street.html

I just recently started reading about Andrej Chikatilo. I had heard that too about his brother. I also know he has some sexual difficulties that made him unable to "perform" correctly. He also had hydrocephalus (I think, but I could be wrong) as a baby - water on the brain - which when he was put to death, they found that his brain was severely damaged probably because of hydrocephalus as an infant. He had a lot of factors against him - brain damage which caused his inability to perform sexually, along with probably some other odd tendencies, along with stories of his brother being eaten as a child. All combined created somebody who was probably just ready to snap.

It was a pretty stressful for my family, especially my sister of course. She was one of only three other people in the building when it happened (summer vacation had just started and the dorms were emptying.) The man was a student at the university and someone had left the dorm door propped open. : ( They just recently arrested the man who killed her: he had ran away to Turkey afterwards. It's been 8 years since she died, so thank goodness they finally arrested him.

That's good to hear and thanks for the link!! My friends always get a little disturbed when I started talking about serial killers, but I find it really interesting.

[Snoogans4Jay]

mishhell said:

mashrum said:

Thanks for the info about Hannibal Mish! I've heard similar thing about Andrej Chikatilo, whose mother told him how his older brother was killed and eaten by some starving stragglers during one of the famines in Ukraine in the Stalinist era, and he also became cannibal (though many people there witnessed such things and didn't become serial killers so that couldn't have been the only reason for him..).

I'm so sorry about your sister losing her friend! You must have been terribly worried about your sister living in that area.

The thing about Nilsen - I think he started killing in '78 and I guess the Pistols were not using the Denmark St rehearsals anymore at that time - they have split up in time! There's a bit about it here --> nickelinthemachine.blogspot.com/2007/11/denmark-street.html

I just recently started reading about Andrej Chikatilo. I had heard that too about his brother. I also know he has some sexual difficulties that made him unable to "perform" correctly. He also had hydrocephalus (I think, but I could be wrong) as a baby - water on the brain - which when he was put to death, they found that his brain was severely damaged probably because of hydrocephalus as an infant. He had a lot of factors against him - brain damage which caused his inability to perform sexually, along with probably some other odd tendencies, along with stories of his brother being eaten as a child. All combined created somebody who was probably just ready to snap.

It was a pretty stressful for my family, especially my sister of course. She was one of only three other people in the building when it happened (summer vacation had just started and the dorms were emptying.) The man was a student at the university and someone had left the dorm door propped open. : ( They just recently arrested the man who killed her: he had ran away to Turkey afterwards. It's been 8 years since she died, so thank goodness they finally arrested him.

That's good to hear and thanks for the link!! My friends always get a little disturbed when I started talking about serial killers, but I find it really interesting.

I have long been interested in the subject of human predators.....to quote one "as the lamb is blessed so is the lion".........spooky shit

[mashrum]

mishhell said:

mashrum said:

Thanks for the info about Hannibal Mish! I've heard similar thing about Andrej Chikatilo, whose mother told him how his older brother was killed and eaten by some starving stragglers during one of the famines in Ukraine in the Stalinist era, and he also became cannibal (though many people there witnessed such things and didn't become serial killers so that couldn't have been the only reason for him..).

I'm so sorry about your sister losing her friend! You must have been terribly worried about your sister living in that area.

The thing about Nilsen - I think he started killing in '78 and I guess the Pistols were not using the Denmark St rehearsals anymore at that time - they have split up in time! There's a bit about it here --> nickelinthemachine.blogspot.com/2007/11/denmark-street.html

I just recently started reading about Andrej Chikatilo. I had heard that too about his brother. I also know he has some sexual difficulties that made him unable to "perform" correctly. He also had hydrocephalus (I think, but I could be wrong) as a baby - water on the brain - which when he was put to death, they found that his brain was severely damaged probably because of hydrocephalus as an infant. He had a lot of factors against him - brain damage which caused his inability to perform sexually, along with probably some other odd tendencies, along with stories of his brother being eaten as a child. All combined created somebody who was probably just ready to snap.

It was a pretty stressful for my family, especially my sister of course. She was one of only three other people in the building when it happened (summer vacation had just started and the dorms were emptying.) The man was a student at the university and someone had left the dorm door propped open. : ( They just recently arrested the man who killed her: he had ran away to Turkey afterwards. It's been 8 years since she died, so thank goodness they finally arrested him.

That's good to hear and thanks for the link!! My friends always get a little disturbed when I started talking about serial killers, but I find it really interesting.

Are you reading any book about Chikatilo, or are you searching the net, Mish? I've read just a little about him on the internet. There's a book about him called Hunting the Devil written by Richard Lourie - Lourie also talks about Chikatilo in that Serial Killers document I've mentioned before - I would like to read that one when I have the time (if ever, now I have 11 books to read for school... ). I've read that he was suspected when the police was investigating the case (it took them 13 years to finally arrest him-it always takes so long ) - and he was even arrested twice, but they let him go because the DNA tests didn't match (meanwhile 15 confessed to commit those crimes and 1 was even executed ) - do you know anything more about that?

I hope your sister feels alright now - I know it would take me years to cope with such a horrible thing! I'm glad that they arrested the man who did that - that must a kind of a relief to know he's in jail.

My friends also looked at me weirdly, when I was writing my essay and I've kept wanting to tell them what I'd found - they were looking at me like I was the psycho (but they all wanted to read it afterwards).

[mashrum]

admin said:

mishhell said:

I just recently started reading about Andrej Chikatilo. I had heard that too about his brother. I also know he has some sexual difficulties that made him unable to "perform" correctly. He also had hydrocephalus (I think, but I could be wrong) as a baby - water on the brain - which when he was put to death, they found that his brain was severely damaged probably because of hydrocephalus as an infant. He had a lot of factors against him - brain damage which caused his inability to perform sexually, along with probably some other odd tendencies, along with stories of his brother being eaten as a child. All combined created somebody who was probably just ready to snap.

It was a pretty stressful for my family, especially my sister of course. She was one of only three other people in the building when it happened (summer vacation had just started and the dorms were emptying.) The man was a student at the university and someone had left the dorm door propped open. : ( They just recently arrested the man who killed her: he had ran away to Turkey afterwards. It's been 8 years since she died, so thank goodness they finally arrested him.

That's good to hear and thanks for the link!! My friends always get a little disturbed when I started talking about serial killers, but I find it really interesting.

I have long been interested in the subject of human predators.....to quote one "as the lamb is blessed so is the lion".........spooky shit

Which one has said that? I know that "We serial killers are your sons, we are your husbands, we are everywhere" quote by Bundy....
Also, when we are talking about serial killers, do you think Albert DeSalvo was really the Boston Strangler???

[kathy]

[/quote] Which one has said that? I know that "We serial killers are your sons, we are your husbands, we are everywhere" quote by Bundy.... ??[/quote]



Regarding the famous Bundy quote, he said that during a series of interviews he gave from the Starke, FL prison to Dr. James Dobson. Bundy talked about his upbringing, why he thought he chose the life of a serial killer, he made the we are your sons, your husbands, comment, and so on. One of those interviews was actually given the afternoon before he went to the electric chair.

It seems that so many of these serial killers wind up down here in FL from other places - Bundy traveled all the way from Washington state via Utah, Andrew Cunanan (the Versace killer) was from California, Aileen Wuornos was born in Michigan, Danny Rolling was from Louisiana. None of these bastards think they'll ever get caught or they'd think twice about committing their dastardly deeds here. Florida has the death penalty and isn't afraid to use it.

[kathy]

Great...another serial killer on the loose in Florida:

www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/palmbeach/sfl-flpwanted0207pnfeb07,0,1596152.story


America's Most Wanted host: Serial killer at work in Boca
By Leon Fooksman | South Florida Sun-Sentinel
February 7, 2008
Did a serial killer commit three slayings and three robberies in the Boca Raton area last year?

A television crime-solver says yes. The Palm Beach County sheriff says there are possible connections. Boca Raton's police chief says it's too early to tell.

But some of the area's top law enforcement officials were suddenly forced to answer the question Wednesday after America's Most Wanted host John Walsh, taping a new episode, said there is a " horrible, cunning and pathological monster" living in South Florida who is behind these crimes, which all originated at shopping centers.

Hours after Walsh came to that conclusion, the Boca Raton Police Services Department released a new Web site revealing new details on the homicides and robberies. The department denied the timing of the release and the subsequent news conference had anything to do with Walsh's statements.

"There's not a right time to release information," Boca Raton Police Chief Dan Alexander said. "Right now it's valuable, in terms of the timing, to release this information."

Among the revelations on myspace.com/brpsd: The mother who was found shot dead along with her 7-year-old daughter at the Town Center mall on Dec. 12 apparently called 911 while they were kidnapped. But Nancy Bochicchio's cell phone call, picked up by the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office, disconnected before she could say anything. The operator tried to call the cell phone but got no response.

The Bochicchios' slayings have fueled speculation that their killer may have had a hand in three other incidents.

On March 23, Randi Gorenberg was last seen leaving the same mall and was found about 40 minutes later shot in the head and dumped next to the South County Civic Center west of Delray Beach, investigators said.

On Aug. 7, a 30-year-old mother and her 2-year-old son were abducted from the mall, forced to drive to an ATM and withdraw $600, then tied up. They were released about an hour later.

On Aug. 10, a 19-year-old woman was robbed at gunpoint at Mizner Park in Boca Raton, and the assailant demanded she take him to an ATM. She gave him $200 and got away.

The Bochicchios, too, were forced to drive to an ATM and withdraw $500, according to the new information on the Web site. The mother and daughter were bound with duct tape, plastic ties, handcuffs and goggles. Their hands, feet, and necks were tied to restrict movement in their SUV. When they were discovered, the bindings on Nancy Bochicchio's wrists were broken. It's not clear who broke the bonds or whether she resisted the suspect.

Alexander said forensic evidence does not link any of the cases. Although there are similarities in the ways the attacks were carried out, he said investigators can't assume the same person or people are responsible for all the crimes.

"There's a lot of speculation on the suspect. Until we have a firm picture from the experts about things we can confirm about the suspect, it's just speculation," Alexander said.

Still, Walsh said he is convinced a serial killer is prowling South Florida.

"This is a horrible, cunning and pathological monster, and I really think the public is in great danger," Walsh said. "Everyone has to be on guard until this guy is stopped."

He added: "It's not just about the money, the ATMs. It's about the power trip. It's controlling women."

Sheriff Ric Bradshaw said the incidents are linked but he stopped short of suggesting a serial killer is on the loose.

"We have events linked through MO. You can brand it as a serial killer. Do I have specific hard evidence to say yes? Absolutely not," Bradshaw said.

Among the similarities, he said, in all but the Mizner Park robberies: Women were targeted, they were abducted at an upscale mall, and they were driving SUVs.

Walsh and Bradshaw made their comments to reporters at the end of filming a segment for Walsh's Fox network show, due to appear Feb. 16. The show will chronicle three of the crimes. Walsh said his show will have a new composite sketch of the Bochicchios' killer.

Boca Raton police have received more than 500 tips on the Bochicchio killings, but no suspects have been named. Last week, 10 detectives from the Police Services Department and the Sheriff's Office teamed up to investigate the incidents and determine whether they are linked to other crimes. The new online site is intended to draw more leads. .

Bradshaw said the upcoming, nearly hourlong segment on America's Most Wanted will help.

"For someone sitting there and watching this, it will dawn on them, and they'll say, 'I saw this guy. He was in the mall, he was in the parking lot, or I saw him buy flex-cuffs,'" he said. "That's how you solve this."

[Snoogans4Jay]

kathy said:

Which one has said that? I know that "We serial killers are your sons, we are your husbands, we are everywhere" quote by Bundy.... ??

Regarding the famous Bundy quote, he said that during a series of interviews he gave from the Starke, FL prison to Dr. James Dobson. Bundy talked about his upbringing, why he thought he chose the life of a serial killer, he made the we are your sons, your husbands, comment, and so on. One of those interviews was actually given the afternoon before he went to the electric chair.

It seems that so many of these serial killers wind up down here in FL from other places - Bundy traveled all the way from Washington state via Utah, Andrew Cunanan (the Versace killer) was from California, Aileen Wuornos was born in Michigan, Danny Rolling was from Louisiana. None of these bastards think they'll ever get caught or they'd think twice about committing their dastardly deeds here. Florida has the death penalty and isn't afraid to use it.

Actually Bundy traveled to Florida in the hopes of execution if caught. He knew he himself could never stop.

Mashrum, the quote is from Edwin Kemper........his was an interesting case.....in American Psycho one of the quotes the fictional character of Pat Bateman attributes to Ed Gein is from Kemper in reality ...spooky but witty character