Nancy Spungen

[Snoogans4Jay]

Well you know it is inevitable.... ...we might as well deal with the issue of Nancy here.... .....what do you all think of her (yes Punky I KNOW your opinion., and John's....... but post it anyhows ) We are among friends here and no one will be flamed for an opinion......

I guess it is a cop out for me not to post mine first. I should say I am a nurse, and have studied behavioral health for some time. I think Nancy and her parents were let down by our system and so was Sid. I think they clung to each other when there was no one else who understood. I guess I am the dreaded (gulp) bleeding heart and I can hear John retching from here..........but......dammit........it is sad.......they were so young ...

[kathy]

admin said:

Well you know it is inevitable.... ...we might as well deal with the issue of Nancy here.... .....what do you all think of her (yes Punky I KNOW your opinion., and John's....... but post it anyhows ) We are among friends here and no one will be flamed for an opinion......

I guess it is a cop out for me not to post mine first. I should say I am a nurse, and have studied behavioral health for some time. I think Nancy and her parents were let down by our system and so was Sid. I think they clung to each other when there was no one else who understood. I guess I am the dreaded (gulp) bleeding heart and I can hear John retching from here..........but......dammit........it is sad.......they were so young ...

Nancy has been so vilified. Many people have had very strong, all negative, opinions about her. God knows I have criticized her myself.

Deborah's book really opened my eyes about Nancy. Try as the family might, they couldn't make things better for their daughter. Remember also that Nancy lived during a time where the topic of mental illness wasn't open in the media and society as it is today, and help not so readily available. It was considered a huge taboo to say you were seeing a psychiatrist or that you had a mental health problem.

I'm sure I'm not unique in that I have known people who've had serious mental health conditions. They are tortured souls who torment their families and loved ones. I recently spoke with someone who is bipolar, a person I've known for years and who is very dear to me. When he was really sick, the things he said and did made you hate him. Thank God, with medications and therapies, he's been stable for the past several years. But if he goes off the meds., look out. I spoke with him recently about what it was like to be bipolar. He explained it as blackness, torture, a living hell. When he's better, he thinks about what he did while ill to his family and friends, and the guilt is so bad it takes his breath away. He said he would have preferred having cancer than to be mentally ill, especially before there was medication to control his condition.

What's my take on Nancy? I imagine that like my friend, during any moments of clarity Nancy had, she might have wished that she could have had a "normal" life. Oh she behaved poorly and made some very bad choices. But I think it was because her mental illness controlled her. I also think she couldn't have been all bad. No one is. Deborah says that in her last conversation, Nancy asked about her grandparents and sent her love. If you watch that NYC Cable show she appeared on with Sid weeks before she died, she says something like I'd like to say hello to my mother. Not in a sarcastic, but a sweet way.

Where Sid was concerned, no one forced him to do drugs with her. He made the decision of his own free will. And let's face it. This 20 year old girl died a horrible, lonely death - internal bleeding from a stab wound to the stomach. At least Sid fell asleep and never woke up. Sure, Nancy might have been out of it with the drugs, but a neighbor at the Chelsea said she heard sounds of a woman moaning from Room 100 that morning. Then for Nancy to have gotten out of bed and walked over to the bathroom seems to suggest she was not feeling well and needed to get herself to the latrine. I think she felt the pain to some degree and no one was around to help her.

You're right Snoogs. When you get right down to it, Sid as well as Nancy's lives were nothing short of tragic.

[jrotten]

I feel sorry for Nancy, she had a hard life.
Her life was horrible, even her death was horrible. And her parents blamed her for everything, they even blamed her for cheating on each other!.
Nobody could understand her until Sid showed up, they became the "Romeo and Juliet" of Punk.
All Nancy wanted to was to be close to the music, she loved music. So she became punk with The Sex Pistols. In my opinion she belongs there because her attitude was punk. But the way she was or the way she been acting was not her fault. I know many people think that she was just a bitch that deserved to die, but thats wrong. Nancy was ill, She had schizophrenia and it damaged her life. And it was not her fault that Sid became a junkie. He was old enough to take his own choice in life and some people say that he was a junkie before he met Nancy. So stop blame her for everything.

R.I.P NANCY LAURA SPUNGEN.

[seasidegrl]

I thought this was interesting. Aparently it is from an interview Nancy did in 1978:

Nancy: I slept in the same bed as John for two nights and he said to me 'You want it but you're not going to get it'. Don't you think it means that he just wanted to get into my pants? Record Mirror 8.4.78

ummm Nanacy? I would say no...John did not want to get into your pants.

[Snoogans4Jay]

seasidegrl said:

I thought this was interesting. Aparently it is from an interview Nancy did in 1978:

Nancy: I slept in the same bed as John for two nights and he said to me 'You want it but you're not going to get it'. Don't you think it means that he just wanted to get into my pants? Record Mirror 8.4.78

ummm Nanacy? I would say no...John did not want to get into your pants.

Yes, even John has stated that she tried first with him and he "passed her on to Sid"...........I don't think John wanted ANY part of what he saw there....

[johnnysgirl]

For me nancy was a whore.. period... I don´t give a damned whetehr she has emntal problems.. does that mean that Sid had to be like her.. I mean a druggie.. Sid could be guided by everyone.. I mean.. Nancy brainwashed him.. it was that fucking bitch who told Sid that New Yor was soo cool and to be a star like the ones in New Yor you had to be a ju nkie.. don´t fucking tell em that nancy was like that becuase of an illneess.. Sid bought that fucking lie....sorry to speak ill of her.. but for me she was a bitch and I´ll keep to my opinion...

[Snoogans4Jay]

johnnysgirl said:

For me nancy was a whore.. period... I don´t give a damned whether she has mental problems.. does that mean that Sid had to be like her.. I mean a druggie.. Sid could be guided by everyone.. I mean.. Nancy brainwashed him.. it was that fucking bitch who told Sid that New Your was SO cool and to be a star like the ones in New Your you had to be a Ku nkie.. don´t fucking tell em that nancy was like that becuase of an illneess.. Sid bought that fucking lie....sorry to speak ill of her.. but for me she was a bitch and I´ll keep to my opinion...

I understand. Many didn't get it. IT is hard to get if you don't feel it don't experience it. Imagine pain, excrutiating pain from the time you are born and can feel. Imagine no one being able to take it away. Image one confused young boy. Imagine he loves you. Imagine that no matter how horrible you are (and you are WAY horrible)........he loves you, sympathizes and he is a rock star on top of it all. HE is your self worth . BUT you know you are ruining his life, the one life you DO care about. Imagine then that no one gets it not your parents, yours brothes or sisters, your friends, even HIM.........he doens't get it but he is the center of it..no you know he doesn't realize if he dies and you die you will be together.....he has to agree.......that is what I think happened with Sid and Nancy, she knew that, he didn't agree.......

[anne]

admin said:

johnnysgirl said:

For me nancy was a whore.. period... I don´t give a damned whether she has mental problems.. does that mean that Sid had to be like her.. I mean a druggie.. Sid could be guided by everyone.. I mean.. Nancy brainwashed him.. it was that fucking bitch who told Sid that New Your was SO cool and to be a star like the ones in New Your you had to be a Ku nkie.. don´t fucking tell em that nancy was like that becuase of an illneess.. Sid bought that fucking lie....sorry to speak ill of her.. but for me she was a bitch and I´ll keep to my opinion...

I understand. Many didn't get it. IT is hard to get if you don't feel it don't experience it. Imagine pain, excrutiating pain from the time you are born and can feel. Imagine no one being able to take it away. Image one confused young boy. Imagine he loves you. Imagine that no matter how horrible you are (and you are WAY horrible)........he loves you, sympathizes and he is a rock star on top of it all. HE is your self worth . BUT you know you are ruining his life, the one life you DO care about. Imagine then that no one gets it not your parents, yours brothes or sisters, your friends, even HIM.........he doens't get it but he is the center of it..no you know he doesn't realize if he dies and you die you will be together.....he has to agree.......that is what I think happened with Sid and Nancy, she knew that, he didn't agree.......

Wow, brilliantly said.. Really. I just had about the same opinion as punky but you know if I really think about it, it's kinda sad. I never thought about it that way. Thanks for letting me, though.

[M!$H]

Nancy was a messed up kid. Does that make it okay for her to do what she did? No. Does that mean we can feel somewhat sorry for her? Yes. She was in the same group as Sid. How did she start doing heroin? Maybe under the same type of situation as Sid. Someone she liked was doing it and she wanted to be liked. While she's not my favorite person in the world, neither is Sid really, I don't feel the need to bash her.

Yeah she was messed up. Yeah sometimes she acted like a whore. Yeah she got Sid into heroin.

Does that mean she deserved to be stabbed and left to die in a bathroom?

No. Because no one deserves that.

I know I've have months in my life where I've been messed up. I've had times in my life where I have acted very much like a whore. I've had times in my life where I have lead people into behavior that's not healthy. Does that make me a bad person? No. Because everyone makes mistakes.

Nancy wasn't a bad person. She made mistakes like everybody else.

Nancy had it in her to be a very good person, but she like Sid was blinded by drugs. She didn't lead Sid into drugs. She offered. She was a hook. Sid could make his own choices. He could have easily gotten clean. Hell, they both could have. But did they? No. Because they made a choice not to.

What happened in this situation could happen to anyone. It could have easily happened to me a year to a year and a half ago. I could have easily gone down the some road as Nancy and Sid. Did I? No. Because I chose to pull my head out of the fucking toilet and look at my life and say stop.

Sid and Nancy couldn't do that. It's their own faults. Equally. both of them. To blame Nancy 100% isn't the right thing to do. Sid was an adult. He could have gotten away from her, from heroin, from everything, and he didn't. Both of them could have been spared, if they'd just said "stop" and put a little effort, if they were motivated. But they didn't. And now they're both dead.

Edited to add: Sid also started doing intravenous drugs way before he ever met Nancy. Remember the story from John's autobiography that John Gray told? About watching Sid shoot up when he was lik 16? Someone was going to offer Sid heroin and he was going to take it because he was already into drugs like that.

[johnnysgirl]

I´ll keep to my opinion.. whatever yo say I won´t change my mind... for me.. I don´t give a flying fuck of how much they loved each other nancy was an oportunist she took Sid to death... maybe his mother gave him the drug.. but he wanted to die thanks to nancy.. what a waste opf time for Sid... who fucking wore a suicide pact?? ehh and you feel sorry for that woman? c´mon.. oh yeah she was ill... and Sid was the perfect victim.. I feel sorry dor Sid not for nancy.. sorry...but you´ll try to change my opinion but I´m strong enouh no to change it even if you cry in front of me...

[Snoogans4Jay]

Well of course you know that I don't try to change other people's opinions.. ......but I must say I don't want that to be the last post on Nancy. Whatever she was Sid loved her. John even now says he thinks she never had a chance from the start (he has read her mother's book). I have also read the book and I must disagree with John in that I don't blame her parents.... .....he is right, they did spoil her, but it was because they didn't know what the fuck ELSE to do with her.......

[kathy]

Love her, hate her, indifferent to her - Nancy's part of Sid's story and legacy. There's no getting around it. And yes, Sid was a big boy when he chose Nancy and he clearly loved her. Also, Nancy was mentally ill which explains a lot of the behavior.

What I'll never get though is the fake British accent that came and went. She was from Philadelphia and people from the Philly area like Nancy have a very distinctive accent. She sounded silly when she did it and I don't think it had anything to do with her illness.

Snoogs I think you mentioned her mother said Nancy adopted the accent of whoever she was dating. But is this this a phenomenon of certain American women who get involved with British men?

Two other examples are Madonna and Linda McCartney - both of whom also speak/spoke as though they're British like Nancy did at times. Not one example of an American male doing this fakeness comes to mind. I cannot stand it when Americans pretend they're British when they're not.

[M!$H]

Regarding the accent thing, sometimes people, when they spend a lot of time around someone with an accent, start to pick it up. For example, my father is Russian, but I was born in America. Sometimes when I spend a lot of time with my dad (like when we're on vacation) I start to pick up little bits of a Russian accent - certain words. My best friend when I was little was Irish and sometimes I would say words and sound Irish. One of my friends is a native Chicagoan, and sometimes I would say certain words with the Chicago accent when I was around her for a long time. Some people - like Madonna and Linda McCartney - probably picked it up. And the woman/man thing: woman are in general listen to things more carefully, especially when people are talking.

Now regarding Nancy, I would say it was a vague attempt to fit in, not just her picking up certain things from Sid (and her other boyfriends). It was more her faking it, rather than actually accidentally do it.

(Just randomly, when I was really little, just learning to talk, I had a New Jersey accent. I'm from the West Coast. lol)

Regarding her parents, I think they did what they could do. The doctors were very unhelpful (they didn't tell them that Nancy was possibly schizophrenic, which would have made getting her treatment simpler). And also, they did what they could with what they had and what was available at the time was a very, very low opinion of people with mental issues. in todays day and age, Nancy would have received proper treatment as an infant, a child, a teenager, and would be a functioning member of society because we have a better understanding today.

[Snoogans4Jay]

mishhell said:

Regarding the accent thing, sometimes people, when they spend a lot of time around someone with an accent, start to pick it up. For example, my father is Russian, but I was born in America. Sometimes when I spend a lot of time with my dad (like when we're on vacation) I start to pick up little bits of a Russian accent - certain words. My best friend when I was little was Irish and sometimes I would say words and sound Irish. One of my friends is a native Chicagoan, and sometimes I would say certain words with the Chicago accent when I was around her for a long time. Some people - like Madonna and Linda McCartney - probably picked it up. And the woman/man thing: woman are in general listen to things more carefully, especially when people are talking.

Now regarding Nancy, I would say it was a vague attempt to fit in, not just her picking up certain things from Sid (and her other boyfriends). It was more her faking it, rather than actually accidentally do it.

(Just randomly, when I was really little, just learning to talk, I had a New Jersey accent. I'm from the West Coast. lol)

Regarding her parents, I think they did what they could do. The doctors were very unhelpful (they didn't tell them that Nancy was possibly schizophrenic, which would have made getting her treatment simpler). And also, they did what they could with what they had and what was available at the time was a very, very low opinion of people with mental issues. in todays day and age, Nancy would have received proper treatment as an infant, a child, a teenager, and would be a functioning member of society because we have a better understanding today.

I work in the mental health industry, and while some things have gotten better, some have not. I recently attended a conference on Psychosis/Schizophrenia/Bipolar in children and adolescents and the thing that stood out the most is how little IS known. Doctors are still hesitant with diagnosis because Schizophrenia is still largely a death sentence for those most severely affected (like Nancy). Parents are still often not told the truth or the true prognosis. Most drugs for ill children are still WIDELY experimental to that age group...........Many of these kids have high IQ as did Nancy, at the start of the illness, but as it progresses and worsens, that is lowered until they are walking shells. Very high risk for suicide and often the only future left to them is living in a group facility or assisted living apartment, tons of meds that are ever changing and unpredictable in nature (not to mention the side effects), mumbled voices in their heads, and no emotion/feeling left in tact.

Schizophrenia is a horrible horrible illness

[M!$H]

admin said:

mishhell said:

Regarding the accent thing, sometimes people, when they spend a lot of time around someone with an accent, start to pick it up. For example, my father is Russian, but I was born in America. Sometimes when I spend a lot of time with my dad (like when we're on vacation) I start to pick up little bits of a Russian accent - certain words. My best friend when I was little was Irish and sometimes I would say words and sound Irish. One of my friends is a native Chicagoan, and sometimes I would say certain words with the Chicago accent when I was around her for a long time. Some people - like Madonna and Linda McCartney - probably picked it up. And the woman/man thing: woman are in general listen to things more carefully, especially when people are talking.

Now regarding Nancy, I would say it was a vague attempt to fit in, not just her picking up certain things from Sid (and her other boyfriends). It was more her faking it, rather than actually accidentally do it.

(Just randomly, when I was really little, just learning to talk, I had a New Jersey accent. I'm from the West Coast. lol)

Regarding her parents, I think they did what they could do. The doctors were very unhelpful (they didn't tell them that Nancy was possibly schizophrenic, which would have made getting her treatment simpler). And also, they did what they could with what they had and what was available at the time was a very, very low opinion of people with mental issues. in todays day and age, Nancy would have received proper treatment as an infant, a child, a teenager, and would be a functioning member of society because we have a better understanding today.

I work in the mental health industry, and while some things have gotten better, some have not. I recently attended a conference on Psychosis/Schizophrenia/Bipolar in children and adolescents and the thing that stood out the most is how little IS known. Doctors are still hesitant with diagnosis because Schizophrenia is still largely a death sentence for those most severely affected (like Nancy). Parents are still often not told the truth or the true prognosis. Most drugs for ill children are still WIDELY experimental to that age group...........Many of these kids have high IQ as did Nancy, at the start of the illness, but as it progresses and worsens, that is lowered until they are walking shells. Very high risk for suicide and often the only future left to them is living in a group facility or assisted living apartment, tons of meds that are ever changing and unpredictable in nature (not to mention the side effects), mumbled voices in their heads, and no emotion/feeling left in tact.

Schizophrenia is a horrible horrible illness

Two of my friends (they're identical twins) - they have a cousin who was "diagnosed" with schizophrenia when he was about 16. What lead to it was because he lifted one of them (at the age of 6 months) up to a ceiling fan...which was turned on. They've been terrified of the cousin ever since. He also has Marfan Syndrome; I don't know if that's connected, but it's a relatively rare disease.

I know a lot of people believe they have schizophrenia and go on talk shows and...having studied it only acutely, I just get the feeling they are being lied to by doctors and/or they're hypochondriacs. Like, we watched a video in my physiology class near the end of last year where this boy, probably 16/17, talked about "when he realized he had schizophrenia" - he saw little orbs of light when he would wake up and he would see "glitters" when he was outside. And you know what I thought? Sometimes when you fall asleep with you're window open and the sun comes up, you open your eyes and you have spots of light in your eyes. Everyone has that. And that's what he was seeing outside. Because apart from that, he was relatively normal - no voices, no hallucinations. But he believed he was schizophrenic - and he was being treated for schizophrenia by his doctors. It's utterly perplexing that millions go with undiagnosed mental illnesses and because one kid saw light spots, he's all of a sudden schizophrenic.

I think possibly Nancy had other mental issues, which we've said before. I don't know if there would be treatment for her - I don't really buy medicating those with certain mental issues, except in extreme cases. I'm not saying it doesn't work, but my experience with medicating those kind of things isn't positive. (I have obsessive-compulsive disorder and I was put on medication for it when I was 12. It just made me sluggish and vomit-y, so I stopped taking it after 4 months. I was also perscribed Ritalin when I was 15 for what my doctors thought was ADD and would black out for periods of time, come to, and realize I'd beaten up people at my school. When I wasn't doing that, I was sluggish and boring. I don't believe I have ADD, but an incredible ability to become obsessed with other things.)

However, I'm sure with proper therapy, irregardless of what mental illness she had, Nancy would have been able to become a functioning member of society. Her treatment was too unstable - too many changes. She was switched from normal school to a school for disturbed children, where she excelled until the administration changed and they implemented new rules and made it into a larger school. If they original system had stayed in place, who knows what Nancy could have become? Would this have happened or would she grow up, get married, and have children of her own? It's really unfair to say those type of things, but you have to wonder.

Anyway. I'm done rambling. lol

I have no hard feelings against Nancy. Deep inside that hard shell, behind the vacant eyes, the fake blonde too-big hair, behind the cheesy leather outside, was a little girl who was scared and tired and confused. And that is the Nancy that I have pity for.